Manchester bus franchising

[MTL0201]

RE: Manchester bus franchising

(21/01/2023 11:11)moreton407 Wrote:  So how does it work with commercial Arriva and Stagecoach routes from outside the TFGM area operating along the same route as subsidised routes within the TFGM area?

SO the 362 is currently run by Arriva Bolton?

As i said, in London, operators from depots outside London have to apply for a London Service Permit to operate non TFL services in the London area, i'm sure GM will have a similar scheme for services that operate from depots outside the GM area

Here's how it works in London.

Most of the routes on our bus network are put out to tender. If you want to run a bus, coach or tours service outside of our network, you'll need to apply for a London Service Permit.

https://tfl.gov.uk/info-for/suppliers-an...ce-permits

[Mayneway]

RE: Manchester bus franchising

(20/01/2023 23:47)Manc93 Wrote:  Regarding the 163 and it being run by Diamond in Bolton, what probably makes it unprofitable or just making money is the fact it must have a lot of dead mileage, either doing driver changeovers in Bury or running empty buses back to the Bolton base.
At a guess i would say Bury back to Bolton running out of service must be 25/30 minutes so thats an hour a day pretty much for each driver on the 163 for dead running.

Also with traffic issues around the city, im sure its a common occurance where drivers are running extremely late for breaks etc, and this will have a knock on effect to other services whichever the driver may next be on.

IMO it looks to me like Diamond are
a) focusing on running the most profitable routes for the remaining of time they run Bolton depot
b) trying to run the most reliable service they can with driver shortages. How many drivers are maybe looking for other work instead of being TUPED over to GNW.... less services means less drivers needed.

I work with a couple of ex Diamond Bolton managers who both reckon the 163 is one of Boltons most profitable routes so regardless of traffic and dead mileage it’s still strange why they are pulling it.

[MTL0201]

RE: Manchester bus franchising

(21/01/2023 21:32)Mayneway Wrote:  I work with a couple of ex Diamond Bolton managers who both reckon the 163 is one of Boltons most profitable routes so regardless of traffic and dead mileage it’s still strange why they are pulling it.

Could it be Diamond are doing it out of spite, lost Bolton depot in the franchising, so hit back by reducing frequencies & withdrawing routes?

[Mrboo]

RE: Manchester bus franchising

(22/01/2023 07:26)MTL0201 Wrote:  Could it be Diamond are doing it out of spite, lost Bolton depot in the franchising, so hit back by reducing frequencies & withdrawing routes?

Would also not be a shock if they now go out of their way to get rid of any staff they can now or move staff out of Bolton. So at hand over there is a staffing issue. They could fill all the posts they need at Preston and Eccles from their current pool.

[Mayneway]

RE: Manchester bus franchising

(22/01/2023 07:26)MTL0201 Wrote:  Could it be Diamond are doing it out of spite, lost Bolton depot in the franchising, so hit back by reducing frequencies & withdrawing routes?

Yes! Withdrawing the 163 will potentially cause the most inconvenience and the biggest headache for both TFGM and the franchising plans.
They have till September then have to walk away from what they have built up so the chances are they will run it into the ground - and they know there’s nothing TFGM can do.

[Mayneway]

RE: Manchester bus franchising

(22/01/2023 11:14)Mrboo Wrote:  Would also not be a shock if they now go out of their way to get rid of any staff they can now or move staff out of Bolton. So at hand over there is a staffing issue. They could fill all the posts they need at Preston and Eccles from their current pool.

They have already said that in the Letter they have sent out to staff. ‘They will happily facilitate any transfer request to other Diamond depots/operations’. I’m pretty sure there will be staff who would prefer to stay with Diamond.

[Mayneway]

RE: Manchester bus franchising

(22/01/2023 07:26)MTL0201 Wrote:  Could it be Diamond are doing it out of spite, lost Bolton depot in the franchising, so hit back by reducing frequencies & withdrawing routes?

Something very similar happened a few years ago. First/Queens Road lost the free bus contract to MCT. It came as a massive shock and they informed TFGM they would be closing the depot and withdrawing some routes and transferring others. After some crunch meetings it was decided to let them keep the contract.
Potentially when more franchise contracts are announced stagecoach could potentially do the same thing and start withdrawing services to cause a massive impact.

[Barney]

RE: Manchester bus franchising

(22/01/2023 11:47)Mayneway Wrote:  Something very similar happened a few years ago. First/Queens Road lost the free bus contract to MCT. It came as a massive shock and they informed TFGM they would be closing the depot and withdrawing some routes and transferring others. After some crunch meetings it was decided to let them keep the contract.
Potentially when more franchise contracts are announced stagecoach could potentially do the same thing and start withdrawing services to cause a massive impact.

I think that you are comparing apples with pears as the game and the rules have now changed.

Stagecoach has been opposed to franchising since it was first mooted and eventually went to the High Court in a vain attempt to get it stopped. The judicial review found against Stagecoach (and Rotala) and reluctantly Stagecoach was obliged to bid for the first tranche of franchises for the Wigan and Bolton areas which proved unsuccessful for them.

When the next two tranches are introduced Stagecoach, like every other operator, will have to submit bids if it wishes to continue to trade in these areas. To suggest that Stagecoach might announce large scale service reductions if it isn't awarded the franchises it regards as its right is possible but highly unlikely for several reasons.

Firstly, its employees will in essence be used as a bargaining chip which would probably lead to industrial action which would then result in the market value of the company as a whole being adversely affected. However, the employees themselves will survive as, whoever wins, the successful winners of the next two tranches will still need the staff and facilities lost by Stagecoach.

Secondly, any attempt to influence the bidding process by threatening to prematurely withdraw its current services would be seen as acting in bad faith and an attempt to illegally influence a open bidding process. This in turn would probably lead to another day in court for Stagecoach's lawyer though not at their behest.

Thirdly, it would appear that many other areas of the country will soon follow TfGM's lead and adopt a franchising system. When this happens - probably within the next few years - these areas will remember how Stagecoach attempted to bully and blackmail TfGM and again may well have an adverse effect on any bids they present.

One of the main arguments put forward in favour of franchising is that it will stop major operators from putting profit margins before passenger needs and, if Stagecoach does what you think it will do, you have just justified the franchising model.

[Mayneway]

RE: Manchester bus franchising

(24/01/2023 12:47)Barney Wrote:  I think that you are comparing apples with pears as the game and the rules have now changed.

Stagecoach has been opposed to franchising since it was first mooted and eventually went to the High Court in a vain attempt to get it stopped. The judicial review found against Stagecoach (and Rotala) and reluctantly Stagecoach was obliged to bid for the first tranche of franchises for the Wigan and Bolton areas which proved unsuccessful for them.

When the next two tranches are introduced Stagecoach, like every other operator, will have to submit bids if it wishes to continue to trade in these areas. To suggest that Stagecoach might announce large scale service reductions if it isn't awarded the franchises it regards as its right is possible but highly unlikely for several reasons.

Firstly, its employees will in essence be used as a bargaining chip which would probably lead to industrial action which would then result in the market value of the company as a whole being adversely affected. However, the employees themselves will survive as, whoever wins, the successful winners of the next two tranches will still need the staff and facilities lost by Stagecoach.

Secondly, any attempt to influence the bidding process by threatening to prematurely withdraw its current services would be seen as acting in bad faith and an attempt to illegally influence a open bidding process. This in turn would probably lead to another day in court for Stagecoach's lawyer though not at their behest.

Thirdly, it would appear that many other areas of the country will soon follow TfGM's lead and adopt a franchising system. When this happens - probably within the next few years - these areas will remember how Stagecoach attempted to bully and blackmail TfGM and again may well have an adverse effect on any bids they present.

One of the main arguments put forward in favour of franchising is that it will stop major operators from putting profit margins before passenger needs and, if Stagecoach does what you think it will do, you have just justified the franchising model.

The rules haven’t changed YET!
I haven’t said Stagecoach would reduce services what I’ve said is they *could* follow Diamonds game and reduce a couple of busy services to cause the most disruption.
It’s not influencing the tender process as diamond have announced the service reductions/withdrawals after the winning bidders were announced.

Your clearly in favour of franchising but fail to explain why you think Diamond would pull their most profitable service in Manchester and reduce many others months before the depot and services pass to another operator.

[Winston]

RE: Manchester bus franchising

(25/01/2023 12:10)Mayneway Wrote:  Your clearly in favour of franchising but fail to explain why you think Diamond would pull their most profitable service in Manchester and reduce many others months before the depot and services pass to another operator.

Rotala are re-deploying 25 x DBNW Streetdecks to Diamond WM (Tividale x 20 & Redditch x 5) during April, in time for when all vehicles in the West Midlands need to be Euro 6 from 1/5/23. There may be a few other odd Euro 6 buses leaving DBNW for WM too, still tbc.

Rotala need to retain a larger double contingent in their Group fleet going forward, to allow them to be able to bid for Tranches 2 & 3 of TfGM Franchises.