Liverpool City Region Bus Franchising

[wirralbus]

RE: Liverpool City Region Bus Franchising

(26/06/2023 09:40)moreton407 Wrote:  1) Services that are run every 90 minutes or two hourly are MErseytravel services, why don't Merseytravel just increase the frequency.

2) I agree that the region needs night services, but again why don't Merseytravel just subsidise these routes?

Surely it would be cheaper for Merseytravel to subsidise increased frequencies or new night time services that to subsidise an entire bus network across Merseyside and Halton?

Merseytravel frequencies are on many differing frequencies some of the odd ones like 65/70 or 75 minutes are to save using another vehicle on a route , Merseytravel will try to save money not waste money.

Some evening services will be worthwhile , but Merseytravel also has to ensure it is not carting around fresh air as well , i remember just after the deregulation in 1986 a service from Birkenhead to West Kirby on a sunday morning that carried 2 passengers the entire way from end to end is that a good use of resources , there must be some routes that are like that now,

[wirralbus]

RE: Liverpool City Region Bus Franchising

(26/06/2023 09:51)Barney Wrote:  Arriva is owned by Deutsche Bahn which provides state-owned public transport in Germany. Stagecoach is now owned by Deutsche Bank.

Neither of these two operators provide bus services in the UK for the love of it. If there wasn't a profit to be made they would sell up.

Both Arriva and Stagecoach now transfer their profits made in the UK to Germany - where public transport is valued far more than in the UK - which currently support a nation-wide Deutschland Ticket costing approximately £40 per month that allows unlimited travel on all local bus and train services.

What will happen will happen , just lets see if it comes off as the Metro Mayor hopes will it or will there be egg on his face.

[CX06 EBK (Administrator)]

RE: Liverpool City Region Bus Franchising
You could say the same about energy firms transferring billions in profit into shareholders and bosses bonuses. If I was given a choice over what was brought under public control as a priority, my astronomical energy bills or bus services - I know which one I'm chosing. You'll ignore the fact that the very party who want to take control over buses in Liverpool have oversaw transforming the city centre into THE most bus unfriendly place to drive anywhere in the city and expect them to do a better job than what's currently here? By the way, Merseytravel also kept services at "covid levels" on their "socially neccesary" services for far longer than the private companies did, what was the excuse? If it was that smaller firms didn't have the staffing levels to cover an increase, why do you think a franchise model will do ANYTHING to change that?

[Barney]

RE: Liverpool City Region Bus Franchising

(26/06/2023 13:00)CX06 EBK Wrote:  You could say the same about energy firms transferring billions in profit into shareholders and bosses bonuses. If I was given a choice over what was brought under public control as a priority, my astronomical energy bills or bus services - I know which one I'm chosing. You'll ignore the fact that the very party who want to take control over buses in Liverpool have oversaw transforming the city centre into THE most bus unfriendly place to drive anywhere in the city and expect them to do a better job than what's currently here? By the way, Merseytravel also kept services at "covid levels" on their "socially neccesary" services for far longer than the private companies did, what was the excuse? If it was that smaller firms didn't have the staffing levels to cover an increase, why do you think a franchise model will do ANYTHING to change that?

There isn't enough money in the Treasury to buy back the energy companies. Personally, I'd prefer the Water companies were taken back into public ownership.

The only reason we are having this discussion on franchising now is because a Conservative Government - not a local Labour administration - passed the necessary legislation in Parliament in 2017 that allows Combined Authorities to adopt this model.

I agree that the provision of bus services in Liverpool city centre is appalling but that is the result of a policy decision taken by Liverpool City Council led by Joe Anderson in 2018 not by the Liverpool City Region or Merseytravel.

The reason why many Merseytravel services were reduced and have never been reinstated is obvious: limited financial support from central government

The problem of recruiting and retaining staff within the bus industry is not a new one and has existed for decades. It was alleviated to some at extent at the turn of the millennium but that supply of labour began to dry up for some reason after a referendum in 2016 and it is now a nationwide problem in many sectors not just the bus industry.

[moreton407]

RE: Liverpool City Region Bus Franchising

(26/06/2023 12:43)wirralbus Wrote:  Merseytravel frequencies are on many differing frequencies some of the odd ones like 65/70 or 75 minutes are to save using another vehicle on a route , Merseytravel will try to save money not waste money.

Some evening services will be worthwhile , but Merseytravel also has to ensure it is not carting around fresh air as well , i remember just after the deregulation in 1986 a service from Birkenhead to West Kirby on a sunday morning that carried 2 passengers the entire way from end to end is that a good use of resources , there must be some routes that are like that now,

I live on the Moreton Circulars route and vary rarely is there anyone one it, I also regularly see the 129 (Liscard-Frankby) carrying fresh air too. Withdraw these and put on a night bus between Liverpool and Birkenhead!

[CX06 EBK (Administrator)]

RE: Liverpool City Region Bus Franchising
So if its limited financial support from central gov, when ALL services are taken under the banner of a franchise what will happen then? No I don't want my council tax bills to go up to fund this either but at the same time you are still going to have the same private companies running these franchises and making money off them, otherwise they wouldn't bid. I have absolutely no faith that any service levels will increase and I would suggest that on some services such as the QBPs frequencies may even get cut back as a result.

If you look at Merseytravels tendered services you'll see there is no joined up thinking between services which are largely similar but somehow take different routes depending on weather its a day or evening service. A good example would be the 135 and 235 in Bootle - which although they largely take the same route for some reason the 135 serves additional roads of an evening that have no daytime service as the 235 takes roads served by a very frequent main corridor service which also serves the start/end point of the 235. Just one example but there are loads of others around the network - and these are the people we think are equipped to run a franchise system?

[wirralbus]

RE: Liverpool City Region Bus Franchising

(26/06/2023 14:13)moreton407 Wrote:  I live on the Moreton Circulars route and vary rarely is there anyone one it, I also regularly see the 129 (Liscard-Frankby) carrying fresh air too. Withdraw these and put on a night bus between Liverpool and Birkenhead!

Those Moreton circulars have always been dubious to say the least .

The 129 though is a historical route and being a one off one return journey a week service wouldnt actually save that much , but its a route that would probablky get LCR some bad publicity if it was withdrawn. I would be interested in the back story for this route though.

[Barney]

RE: Liverpool City Region Bus Franchising

(26/06/2023 14:13)moreton407 Wrote:  I live on the Moreton Circulars route and vary rarely is there anyone one it, I also regularly see the 129 (Liscard-Frankby) carrying fresh air too. Withdraw these and put on a night bus between Liverpool and Birkenhead!

I agree that it is totally unacceptable that there is no night bus service between Liverpool and the Wirral.

For those of us old enough to remember, I can recall a ten-minute frequency at the weekend on the 450 through the Birkenhead tunnel. When first introduced in 1995, the extensive night bus services were very successful but the relaxation of the licensing laws in 2005 that allowed bars to stay open after 2am drastically reduced demand.

One of the stated aims by the LCR is that major routes will have at least an hourly service between midnight and 5am. The only way I can see this happening is if it written into franchise contracts should franchising ever happen.

[iMarkeh]

RE: Liverpool City Region Bus Franchising

(25/06/2023 08:11)Barney Wrote:  2. The examples you have cited as failed operators (Halton and Warrington) were/are in fact arms length operations meaning that the local councils have to compete commercially with competitors.

Yes and no. Halton CHOSE to compete strongly on some of the routes. Warrington has no competition really except for the 32 which they introduced to compete against Arriva, their choice. When there was stronger competition, they had to compete a little on some routes but with their fares being as high as they are, people don't like using WOB.

(25/06/2023 08:11)Barney Wrote:  3. The franchising model gives a single operator a monopoly on specific routes thus reducing overall costs by eradicating wasteful and unnecessary competition.

Given the state of the industry over the past few years, how much 'wasteful and unnecessary competition' actually exists now? Very, very little.

(25/06/2023 08:11)Barney Wrote:  5. Fares will be lower under franchising.

Fact check? Fares for some passenger such as students are actually going up in Manchester with franchising and London bus caps are higher than many private operators tickets in the rest of the UK.

(26/06/2023 08:50)Walton 46 Wrote:  Although the proposed franchising scheme is going to cost a few bob in the short run, I think it will be worth it in the long run for the following reasons:

1) At the moment, some parts of the city region only have a bus service every 90 min Monday - Saturday or 2 hourly evenings and Sundays. Under the proposed scheme, all bus routes will have a minimum 1 bus an hour between 5 am and Midnight, a vast improvement on today.

So you're advocating wasting public funds on many routes? Throwing thousands of pounds per day down the drain on buses which people aren't using. Yes 5am-0am would be a great idea for some routes but certainly not for all! You know it's a stupid idea when it goes far in excess of what even TFL do. TFL has routes which run a few times per day and adjust according to demand.

(26/06/2023 08:50)Walton 46 Wrote:  2) At the moment, The LCR doesn't have night buses. There have been calls to reinstate the the ones which where withdrawn when Covid came in, but the bus companies have refused to do so. Night buses are important for two reasons: firstly, supporting the Night Time Economy - giving people more options to get home instead of forking out £20/£30 for taxis. And secondly, breaking down barriers to employment. My brother went to a jobs fair at the airport in February but found he couldn't apply for any of the jobs on offer because they all had morning shifts starting at 3am. My brother doesn't drive so his only of getting to the airport for 3am would be taxis.

Night buses we all agree on. Merseytravel won't fund them now though so what makes you think they will in a few years? Granted the private operators don't help with the night buses and they should really do more to run later buses.

[CUL 73V]

RE: Liverpool City Region Bus Franchising

(26/06/2023 21:16)Barney Wrote:  I agree that it is totally unacceptable that there is no night bus service between Liverpool and the Wirral.

For those of us old enough to remember, I can recall a ten-minute frequency at the weekend on the 450 through the Birkenhead tunnel. When first introduced in 1995, the extensive night bus services were very successful but the relaxation of the licensing laws in 2005 that allowed bars to stay open after 2am drastically reduced demand.

One of the stated aims by the LCR is that major routes will have at least an hourly service between midnight and 5am. The only way I can see this happening is if it written into franchise contracts should franchising ever happen.

We do need night buses, absolutely. However, a more cost effective and beneficial solution is LCR subsidising a night bus network. Saves the taxpayer a large sum of money and contributes to the economy.

LCR can have all the aims they like, but I don't trust them to deliver a pizza.