Liverpool City Region Bus Franchising

[CX06 EBK (Administrator)]

RE: Liverpool City Region Bus Franchising
1466, anyone could put themselves forward to do better. In Liverpool, if it wears a red labour rose then it is getting voted in for the council, this is the same Labour that have under the stewardship of Joe and Joeanne Anderson oversaw some of the worst councils going.

Even WITH Merseytravel being hit by government cuts, they still provide a tendered network that is unfit for purpose and one that could be far better planned out than any of their reviews have come up with. They run daytime and evening services of effectively the same routes across different roads and missing other roads out for no reason so in effect that the evening service will serve roads the daytime has no buses on while it plods around roads the main bus routes serve. Joined up thinking, hey?

[CUL 73V]

RE: Liverpool City Region Bus Franchising

(28/06/2023 10:57)1466 Wrote:  Utter tosh, you want to live where I live, the private operators who are only interested in how much profit they can trouser have left my community virtually cut off in the evenings, Sundays and bank holidays. Franchising will fix that.

Merseytravel and the local authorities have all been hammered by austerity, if you think they are substandard, as we live in a democracy, you are well within your rights to put yourself forward if you think you can do better

It isn't "utter tosh" I'm afraid, it's reality. The organisation responsible for the situation your community is unfortunately in will be the same one responsible for the delivery of franchising. Merseytravel. I suggest you direct your misguided annoyance at them and your local politicians, not the private sector. It's the former who have failed to do their job for the residents in your area.

That is true, but they've undeniably wasted quite a lot of this money. £6.5 million was spent on introducing the Walrus card, only for it to be phased out and replaced six years later. Conveniently, the financial cost of this unnecessary decision doesn't seem to be available, but it won't have been cheap. How many vital services could that money have supported?

I'd love to have a go, but I'm a Liberal Democrat and Old Swan only votes for Labour councillors.

[1466]

RE: Liverpool City Region Bus Franchising

(28/06/2023 12:46)CUL 73V Wrote:  It isn't "utter tosh" I'm afraid, it's reality. The organisation responsible for the situation your community is unfortunately in will be the same one responsible for the delivery of franchising. Merseytravel. I suggest you direct your misguided annoyance at them and your local politicians, not the private sector. It's the former who have failed to do their job for the residents in your area.

That is true, but they've undeniably wasted quite a lot of this money. £6.5 million was spent on introducing the Walrus card, only for it to be phased out and replaced six years later. Conveniently, the financial cost of this unnecessary decision doesn't seem to be available, but it won't have been cheap. How many vital services could that money have supported?

I'd love to have a go, but I'm a Liberal Democrat and Old Swan only votes for Labour councillors.

I'm afraid it is, firstly, the smart ticketing projects would have been funded by grant funding, Walrus wasn't replaced but evolved into the Metro Card, which I'm sure can all agree is a good thing.

I could wax lyrical about the impact of austerity brought about in part by the fib dems, needless to say, local government funding and Merseytravel has been decimated.

The fact of the matter is that our bus network has been decimated by the private operators, just look at East Cheshire which has been abandoned by Arriva and the fact of the matter is Merseytravel doesn't have the funding to fill the gaps

[CUL 73V]

RE: Liverpool City Region Bus Franchising

(28/06/2023 18:58)1466 Wrote:  I'm afraid it is, firstly, the smart ticketing projects would have been funded by grant funding, Walrus wasn't replaced but evolved into the Metro Card, which I'm sure can all agree is a good thing.

I could wax lyrical about the impact of austerity brought about in part by the fib dems, needless to say, local government funding and Merseytravel has been decimated.

The fact of the matter is that our bus network has been decimated by the private operators, just look at East Cheshire which has been abandoned by Arriva and the fact of the matter is Merseytravel doesn't have the funding to fill the gaps

I'm afraid it isn't "tosh", because Merseytravel and your local politicians obviously haven't done anything to prevent your area losing its bus service. It appears I was mistaken with Walrus, what the £6.5 million of taxpayer money was actually spent on was investing in a smart card company which never made any money.

Arriva won't provide a service if it doesn't cover its costs. If enough people use their bus service, then it'll make enough money to cover its costs and it won't give the operator a reason to withdraw it. As for Merseytravel not having enough funding for vital services, they would if they didn't waste it. They paid John West Foods £425k of taxpayer money to rent a floor in their new headquarters, which Merseytravel move into from rent free premises. Then there's the £70 million wasted on the Merseytram project. How many vital bus services could that combined £77 million have subsidised?

And by the way, having a dig at my political views just shows how mature you are.

[iMarkeh]

RE: Liverpool City Region Bus Franchising

(28/06/2023 18:58)1466 Wrote:  I'm afraid it is, firstly, the smart ticketing projects would have been funded by grant funding, Walrus wasn't replaced but evolved into the Metro Card, which I'm sure can all agree is a good thing.

I am yet to see what difference the Metro Card makes over the Walrus!

(28/06/2023 18:58)1466 Wrote:  The fact of the matter is that our bus network has been decimated by the private operators, just look at East Cheshire which has been abandoned by Arriva and the fact of the matter is Merseytravel doesn't have the funding to fill the gaps

Merseytravel will happily find funding though for Moreton Circulars. I'd also invite you to look at the disastrous new St Helens timetable if you want to see examples of Merseytravels excellent work. Completely different timetables Monday-Saturday evenings compared to Sundays, often resulting in later buses on Sundays than Monday-Saturdays. Absolutely zero care from Merseytravel about the incompetent t**t who created these timetables.
Or perhaps we could look at the 3/3A which start at Fazakerley in the mornings and run at the same time as commercial alternatives.

If we move onto ticketing. Merseytravel are still stuck in the stone ages. The only ticket which is available for a day of multi modal travel, it can only be bought at staffed rail stations, paypoint (if you have a smartcard already and if the shopkeeper knows how to issue the thing) and Merseytravel Centres (Which are shut half of the time now as the staff are too busy running around trying to give bus drivers trying to give them fines for stopping on the wrong stand (which would only ever be done to avoid delays). There is no way to buy a Saveaway on the bus. No paper ticket available, smartcard only. Not very good for tourists is it?
Maybe the zonal system which no one understands and given the way tickets are issued, would make sense to remove most of the zones and make it into the 5 council zones or abandon the zoning system completely.
Or perhaps we could look at the MyTicket which is rife with fraud, led 1 bus company ceasing and contributed to another one having significant financial difficulties. Where else could we look? Maybe look at the Ferries website which makes no reference to any multi modal tickets and focusses on parking (parking which is free for season ticket holders!) That's not very integrated is it? Certainly does nothing to promote getting people onto buses either side of the ferry.

I think now is probably a good time to point you towards Halton Council who refuse to pay the transport precept as they want to continue running down the buses within the borough. They messed up Halton Transport and don't want anyone to thrive in what should be prime bus territory. No multi operator scheme in Halton except for under 18s. Halton Hopper was a thing but was a waste of time and made intentionally difficult to get. Bus stops in a dire state of repair, generally not repaired. No or limited bus stop timetables. Maps in Runcorn East were 10 years out of date.
These people will be in charge of the bus network and you think this is a good idea?

(28/06/2023 20:19)CUL 73V Wrote:  I'm afraid it isn't "tosh", because Merseytravel and your local politicians obviously haven't done anything to prevent your area losing its bus service. It appears I was mistaken with Walrus, what the £6.5 million of taxpayer money was actually spent on was investing in a smart card company which never made any money.

Arriva won't provide a service if it doesn't cover its costs. If enough people use their bus service, then it'll make enough money to cover its costs and it won't give the operator a reason to withdraw it.

To play devils advocate a little bit here, Arriva are quite good at smart accounting. If they don't want a route for whatever reason, they will make the accounting in such a way that they don't run it. I also believe that Arriva only counts revenue for their service as revenue taken on the bus there and then per trip so returns, day, weeklies etc aren't really counted for. That is how it ended up that Arriva run so few evening buses as it's everyone coming back on returns and day tickets etc. That's how routes like the X1 got cut. They cut it back so that everyone had to use another route to connect into the X1 (making it more inconvenient for people to use the X1 but also boosted revenue on other routes as it saved overbussing the busway). The X1 then made no money and despite being regularly busy, didn't make much money on the bus as everyone used day tickets. If Arriva don't want a route, they will try to run it down. Death by 1000 cuts as it's well known.

(28/06/2023 20:19)CUL 73V Wrote:  As for Merseytravel not having enough funding for vital services, they would if they didn't waste it. They paid John West Foods £425k of taxpayer money to rent a floor in their new headquarters, which Merseytravel move into from rent free premises. Then there's the £70 million wasted on the Merseytram project. How many vital bus services could that combined £77 million have subsidised?

Could we perhaps look at Christmas Day buses. £20k is what Merseytravel pay for Christmas Day buses. No charging of fares so no potential to earn back some revenue. On routes which have no or very limited service every other day of the year. Some routes carrying single figures in the whole day yet the routes are kept going because people in Merseytravel haven't the braincells to update the network. According to Liam Robinson, he said at the transport committee that these buses which carry single numbers of passengers in a day of operation are 'good value for money'.
Another good one would be the fact the city region charges buses to go through the tunnel which in turn makes more routes unviable because buses have to be busier or charge passengers a premium to go through the tunnel to make up for the cost. Why would anyone who supported public transport, charge buses to go through the tunnel and yet give local residents a large discount?

All of this is before we get onto the fact that Merseytravel have got the Hydrogen buses but forgot to find anywhere for them to fuel up. They brought in an Enviro 400EV to 'showcase to the public' to tease people because they knew that people had lost hope so they brought false hope using a bus which was nothing to do with the hydrogen buses just to try and win some election votes. They put the hydrogen buses into service for a few days during Eurovision. Where are they now? Gone back to the manufacturer or not in service. Again, teasing the public with eurovision to look good to the world while actually being a local failure and throwing away taxpayers money.
Or do we look at the new trains which were tested for a long time and are now full of faults and not fit for purpose. Again, brought in on the Ormskirk line for Aintree to try and look good to the world. Kirkby I don't think has ever had a worse train service than now these new trains are in service. No one holds Merseytravel and the elected officials accountable, they are just full of self promotion. They couldn't care about the everyday people who want better public transport. As the new trains and new buses are proving, they will do anything, including pushing unsuitable, untested trains and vehicles into service long before they are ready, all so that they can keep their popularity going. Buses won't get better with the egotistical twerps in charge of it. I've made my voice very well known on Stagecoach and Arriva locally but even I know that the grass is not going to be greener with franchising.

[childwallblues]

RE: Liverpool City Region Bus Franchising
Everything IMarkeh says is correct. Franchising by their own admission is going is going to cost us at least £341 million whichever way it is raised.

[MPTE1955]

RE: Liverpool City Region Bus Franchising
The way Rotheram wants to franchise is as he has said London Style. This is the Transport For London massively in debt style so not the best model to work from. The new buses well its technology that the French abandoned as being too expensive which Rotheram also knew but his own ego has made him press on with them. The trains are an improvement, but are bedding in so we will see how good they are as they get even more into service.

[CUL 73V]

RE: Liverpool City Region Bus Franchising

(29/06/2023 21:03)iMarkeh Wrote:  I am yet to see what difference the Metro Card makes over the Walrus!

Merseytravel will happily find funding though for Moreton Circulars. I'd also invite you to look at the disastrous new St Helens timetable if you want to see examples of Merseytravels excellent work. Completely different timetables Monday-Saturday evenings compared to Sundays, often resulting in later buses on Sundays than Monday-Saturdays. Absolutely zero care from Merseytravel about the incompetent t**t who created these timetables.
Or perhaps we could look at the 3/3A which start at Fazakerley in the mornings and run at the same time as commercial alternatives.

If we move onto ticketing. Merseytravel are still stuck in the stone ages. The only ticket which is available for a day of multi modal travel, it can only be bought at staffed rail stations, paypoint (if you have a smartcard already and if the shopkeeper knows how to issue the thing) and Merseytravel Centres (Which are shut half of the time now as the staff are too busy running around trying to give bus drivers trying to give them fines for stopping on the wrong stand (which would only ever be done to avoid delays). There is no way to buy a Saveaway on the bus. No paper ticket available, smartcard only. Not very good for tourists is it?
Maybe the zonal system which no one understands and given the way tickets are issued, would make sense to remove most of the zones and make it into the 5 council zones or abandon the zoning system completely.
Or perhaps we could look at the MyTicket which is rife with fraud, led 1 bus company ceasing and contributed to another one having significant financial difficulties. Where else could we look? Maybe look at the Ferries website which makes no reference to any multi modal tickets and focusses on parking (parking which is free for season ticket holders!) That's not very integrated is it? Certainly does nothing to promote getting people onto buses either side of the ferry.

I think now is probably a good time to point you towards Halton Council who refuse to pay the transport precept as they want to continue running down the buses within the borough. They messed up Halton Transport and don't want anyone to thrive in what should be prime bus territory. No multi operator scheme in Halton except for under 18s. Halton Hopper was a thing but was a waste of time and made intentionally difficult to get. Bus stops in a dire state of repair, generally not repaired. No or limited bus stop timetables. Maps in Runcorn East were 10 years out of date.
These people will be in charge of the bus network and you think this is a good idea?

To play devils advocate a little bit here, Arriva are quite good at smart accounting. If they don't want a route for whatever reason, they will make the accounting in such a way that they don't run it. I also believe that Arriva only counts revenue for their service as revenue taken on the bus there and then per trip so returns, day, weeklies etc aren't really counted for. That is how it ended up that Arriva run so few evening buses as it's everyone coming back on returns and day tickets etc. That's how routes like the X1 got cut. They cut it back so that everyone had to use another route to connect into the X1 (making it more inconvenient for people to use the X1 but also boosted revenue on other routes as it saved overbussing the busway). The X1 then made no money and despite being regularly busy, didn't make much money on the bus as everyone used day tickets. If Arriva don't want a route, they will try to run it down. Death by 1000 cuts as it's well known.

Could we perhaps look at Christmas Day buses. £20k is what Merseytravel pay for Christmas Day buses. No charging of fares so no potential to earn back some revenue. On routes which have no or very limited service every other day of the year. Some routes carrying single figures in the whole day yet the routes are kept going because people in Merseytravel haven't the braincells to update the network. According to Liam Robinson, he said at the transport committee that these buses which carry single numbers of passengers in a day of operation are 'good value for money'.
Another good one would be the fact the city region charges buses to go through the tunnel which in turn makes more routes unviable because buses have to be busier or charge passengers a premium to go through the tunnel to make up for the cost. Why would anyone who supported public transport, charge buses to go through the tunnel and yet give local residents a large discount?

All of this is before we get onto the fact that Merseytravel have got the Hydrogen buses but forgot to find anywhere for them to fuel up. They brought in an Enviro 400EV to 'showcase to the public' to tease people because they knew that people had lost hope so they brought false hope using a bus which was nothing to do with the hydrogen buses just to try and win some election votes. They put the hydrogen buses into service for a few days during Eurovision. Where are they now? Gone back to the manufacturer or not in service. Again, teasing the public with eurovision to look good to the world while actually being a local failure and throwing away taxpayers money.
Or do we look at the new trains which were tested for a long time and are now full of faults and not fit for purpose. Again, brought in on the Ormskirk line for Aintree to try and look good to the world. Kirkby I don't think has ever had a worse train service than now these new trains are in service. No one holds Merseytravel and the elected officials accountable, they are just full of self promotion. They couldn't care about the everyday people who want better public transport. As the new trains and new buses are proving, they will do anything, including pushing unsuitable, untested trains and vehicles into service long before they are ready, all so that they can keep their popularity going. Buses won't get better with the egotistical twerps in charge of it. I've made my voice very well known on Stagecoach and Arriva locally but even I know that the grass is not going to be greener with franchising.

They really need to charge for the Christmas Day buses, especially now the fare cap is in place.

As for everything else you've said, I completely agree and have already mentioned how atrocious I think their procurement process is. I had a look around 4900 and 4901 at Jackson Street just after Eurovision, let's just say I'm not impressed with the value for money. Not to mention the fact they're three months away from entering service, which is an utter joke. I'm glad they weren't ordered for a Green Lane route, which means I won't have to drive them.

The new trains weren't ready to enter service when they did, but they did anyway because the lack of a contingency left them with no choice. But, the cherry on the cake really has to be ordering them before realising paired sets won't actually fit at Southport, an issue now being rectified at further expense to the taxpayer.

[Metroline1511]

RE: Liverpool City Region Bus Franchising

(28/06/2023 12:46)CUL 73V Wrote:  It isn't "utter tosh" I'm afraid, it's reality. The organisation responsible for the situation your community is unfortunately in will be the same one responsible for the delivery of franchising. Merseytravel. I suggest you direct your misguided annoyance at them and your local politicians, not the private sector. It's the former who have failed to do their job for the residents in your area.

That is true, but they've undeniably wasted quite a lot of this money. £6.5 million was spent on introducing the Walrus card, only for it to be phased out and replaced six years later. Conveniently, the financial cost of this unnecessary decision doesn't seem to be available, but it won't have been cheap. How many vital services could that money have supported?

I'd love to have a go, but I'm a Liberal Democrat and Old Swan only votes for Labour councillors.

It would have been easier to forgive them for discontinuing the Walrus card had they replaced it with a Yellow Submarine card.

[Metroline1511]

RE: Liverpool City Region Bus Franchising

(29/06/2023 21:03)iMarkeh Wrote:  I am yet to see what difference the Metro Card makes over the Walrus!

Merseytravel will happily find funding though for Moreton Circulars. I'd also invite you to look at the disastrous new St Helens timetable if you want to see examples of Merseytravels excellent work. Completely different timetables Monday-Saturday evenings compared to Sundays, often resulting in later buses on Sundays than Monday-Saturdays. Absolutely zero care from Merseytravel about the incompetent t**t who created these timetables.
Or perhaps we could look at the 3/3A which start at Fazakerley in the mornings and run at the same time as commercial alternatives.

If we move onto ticketing. Merseytravel are still stuck in the stone ages. The only ticket which is available for a day of multi modal travel, it can only be bought at staffed rail stations, paypoint (if you have a smartcard already and if the shopkeeper knows how to issue the thing) and Merseytravel Centres (Which are shut half of the time now as the staff are too busy running around trying to give bus drivers trying to give them fines for stopping on the wrong stand (which would only ever be done to avoid delays). There is no way to buy a Saveaway on the bus. No paper ticket available, smartcard only. Not very good for tourists is it?
Maybe the zonal system which no one understands and given the way tickets are issued, would make sense to remove most of the zones and make it into the 5 council zones or abandon the zoning system completely.
Or perhaps we could look at the MyTicket which is rife with fraud, led 1 bus company ceasing and contributed to another one having significant financial difficulties. Where else could we look? Maybe look at the Ferries website which makes no reference to any multi modal tickets and focusses on parking (parking which is free for season ticket holders!) That's not very integrated is it? Certainly does nothing to promote getting people onto buses either side of the ferry.

I think now is probably a good time to point you towards Halton Council who refuse to pay the transport precept as they want to continue running down the buses within the borough. They messed up Halton Transport and don't want anyone to thrive in what should be prime bus territory. No multi operator scheme in Halton except for under 18s. Halton Hopper was a thing but was a waste of time and made intentionally difficult to get. Bus stops in a dire state of repair, generally not repaired. No or limited bus stop timetables. Maps in Runcorn East were 10 years out of date.
These people will be in charge of the bus network and you think this is a good idea?

To play devils advocate a little bit here, Arriva are quite good at smart accounting. If they don't want a route for whatever reason, they will make the accounting in such a way that they don't run it. I also believe that Arriva only counts revenue for their service as revenue taken on the bus there and then per trip so returns, day, weeklies etc aren't really counted for. That is how it ended up that Arriva run so few evening buses as it's everyone coming back on returns and day tickets etc. That's how routes like the X1 got cut. They cut it back so that everyone had to use another route to connect into the X1 (making it more inconvenient for people to use the X1 but also boosted revenue on other routes as it saved overbussing the busway). The X1 then made no money and despite being regularly busy, didn't make much money on the bus as everyone used day tickets. If Arriva don't want a route, they will try to run it down. Death by 1000 cuts as it's well known.

Could we perhaps look at Christmas Day buses. £20k is what Merseytravel pay for Christmas Day buses. No charging of fares so no potential to earn back some revenue. On routes which have no or very limited service every other day of the year. Some routes carrying single figures in the whole day yet the routes are kept going because people in Merseytravel haven't the braincells to update the network. According to Liam Robinson, he said at the transport committee that these buses which carry single numbers of passengers in a day of operation are 'good value for money'.
Another good one would be the fact the city region charges buses to go through the tunnel which in turn makes more routes unviable because buses have to be busier or charge passengers a premium to go through the tunnel to make up for the cost. Why would anyone who supported public transport, charge buses to go through the tunnel and yet give local residents a large discount?

All of this is before we get onto the fact that Merseytravel have got the Hydrogen buses but forgot to find anywhere for them to fuel up. They brought in an Enviro 400EV to 'showcase to the public' to tease people because they knew that people had lost hope so they brought false hope using a bus which was nothing to do with the hydrogen buses just to try and win some election votes. They put the hydrogen buses into service for a few days during Eurovision. Where are they now? Gone back to the manufacturer or not in service. Again, teasing the public with eurovision to look good to the world while actually being a local failure and throwing away taxpayers money.
Or do we look at the new trains which were tested for a long time and are now full of faults and not fit for purpose. Again, brought in on the Ormskirk line for Aintree to try and look good to the world. Kirkby I don't think has ever had a worse train service than now these new trains are in service. No one holds Merseytravel and the elected officials accountable, they are just full of self promotion. They couldn't care about the everyday people who want better public transport. As the new trains and new buses are proving, they will do anything, including pushing unsuitable, untested trains and vehicles into service long before they are ready, all so that they can keep their popularity going. Buses won't get better with the egotistical twerps in charge of it. I've made my voice very well known on Stagecoach and Arriva locally but even I know that the grass is not going to be greener with franchising.

There is 1 worry in having Arriva as the main operator. They have tended to prioritise more modern and higher value buses on more profitable routes. As the industry has lost money since Covid and most or all routes lost money, they have just let the buses get older and rarely replaced them. They have even given up in some areas such as Guildford and East Cheshire rather than modernise the fleet in a stronger operation and cascade midlife buses to weaker areas.